Return of the Sith or Sparrow is an idiot

Sparrow

Yesterday was...a trip. This is a bit disjointed; I'm in an emotional tailspin and just bought a bag of cookies. I could use some advice. Even if the advice is: Sparrow, you're an idiot. And, wait, you acted like that? And, what is your SR again? Just, please, if you do think I'm being that silly, please tell me why I'm being an idiot and not just "yep. Silly birdie."

Some background: I once dated what is commonly referred to as an asshole alpha. I (unknowingly) shit tested him into beta. I kept breaking up with him and we got back together three times in three years. To this day, I'm not sure if he's emotionally abusive or has some kind of Cluster B issue. I think it's a strong possibility, but I also know that, especially towards the end, I was being a bitch. After last breakup, I spent a fair amount of time apologizing because I figured out I was a bitch. Including once, memorably, on my knees. Yes, I did the whole submissive posturing thing. Apology accepted. Then I went abroad for a year (and got more religious over the period of time). Thought I was done with the cycle. During that time, my former best friend carried on an fwb situation with the fellow at the same time he was e-mailing me asking to make up.

I know I handled a lot of it badly. We started dating when I was 19. This was the second guy I ever kissed. Aside from all the emotional stuff that went on, the physical stuff (sort of sex?) was...Really Good. Ok, so I pretty much went from 0 to 500 in this relationship, and have no real basis of comparison, but as far as I can tell, sex type stuff was really good for both of us. Emotionally: good to ok to godawful. Chemistry: through the roof. 

Eventually, sort of made up with the friend. She asked me to be a bridesmaid at her June wedding (she's engaged to a different guy). *sigh* I said yes. Except, she also wants my ex boyfriend in her wedding party. The guy is a starving musician trying to make it big and currently has a harem of six, not counting the ONS. She asked me to play nice. So, Monday, we were all in the same place at the same time. I'm so much on edge that I can barely think straight, but I did my best to be friendly. Boy tries to give me (and assorted other female types) a hug before he goes; I take a step back. Boy asked if he could call me to get a cup of coffee next time he's in town.  I said: ok.

I called later that night because I wanted to understand what his intentions were. After some phone tag, he said he missed having me as a friend in his life and would call about the coffee next time he were in town. Except...we never did well as friends. That's one reason why we kept getting back together.

So I'm confused. Is he actually serious about the coffee? I'm a bit skeptical about the friend bit, but he's also incurably honest. Is he trying to gloat? Be friends? Add me to the harem? Get back together? And how much are regular awesomely good sexytimes worth?
I don't know if you want to label this as, "idiot hamster can't step away from alpha," or "ex-stupidity," or, "bad relationship cycles," or "what's the worst that could happen?," or "men and women can't be friends" or "Sparrow thinks about sex too much" or "get out and date other guys" or what.
I'd just like to know what you guys think is going on. Help?

Wendy

I gotta run!  but I really wanna read your post and comment, and I am 100% sure my advice IS NOT gonna say that you are an idiot.  More later...

Version3

Overcomplicated much? I think the history is mucking with your head, but I could be wrong.

WTF is wrong with taking the guy at his word (you said he's incurably honest)? That said, he doesn't seem to excel at keeping things in the FriendZone, but maybe that really is his intent.

Frankly, I think you doubt your will power to avoid something sexual. He's clearly up for a lot of sex and partners, but if you don't want to go there, just don't go there. Then it doesn't matter what he wants: just treat him as you wish to treat him.

Athol_Kay

Just listen lol Oh and having guys you've previously fucked in the wedding party. Stay classy girlfriend.

dmortone

Harem of six so the guy clearly knows what he's doing. "Coffee" so you guys can be "friends" sounds like plausible deniability to placate your hamster. I'd expect he'll try to initiate some harmless kino while you guys catch up before slowly escalating and then, especially cause of your history, it'd be game over.

What he wants? I dunno, prolly sex stuff. If I was you, I'd refuse to let him take the conversation towards sex or let him touch you. It'll probably drive him crazy. Unless you wanna be seduced, then you can probably just sit back and let him work his magic.

RedPillWifey

Guys and girls can't be friends. He thinks you're an easy target because of your history, IMO.

Ben

I think you know the answer to this one in your heart of hearts.  He wants to have sex with you.  Maybe his man-Hamster has convinced him of all that bullcrap about being friends to the point where he actually believes it, but you know better.

And on some level you want the same thing he wants, or you wouldn't even be entertaining the notion of going on a date with him.  Yes, that is what it is.  Man + woman + alone together = date.

That doesn't make you an idiot.  That makes you human.  We all have our moments of weakness and self-delusion.  The fact that you're here on these boards questioning it means you don't fully buy into this "friends" nonsense.

So now you get to decide: are you a woman with agency who is capable of rationally choosing the course of action most in line with her own enlightened self-interest?  Or are you a lizard brain with a Hamster attached?

Let me know how it works out.

Jane

I sometimes question if you're someone I know...you're not in Cali are you?  You sound sooooo much like this past friend of mine who I was always trying to "fix" her disfunctional relationship cycle with a particular guy who was sooooo bad for her...It was an exercise in banging my head against a brick wall, so please understand that this may be a bit more harsh than neccessary due to the fact that I've given this advise a million times without avail...just full disclosure if it's too harsh, but i'm trying to save your friends months of moping up your tears when your covert contract gets violated...

He wants to be friends?  He apparently fucks his friends and that's what he's looking for from you, another woman to fuck (who I expect will be highly AVAILABLE to him for fucking given how many times you went back to a guy you call an "asshole.)"  Hell yea he wants to be friends.  He doesn't like you enough to be be TOGETHER or at least wouldn't be proud to introduce you as his main squeeze,  But he likes you enough to hang out occasionally, knowing when his other girls aren't around that you'll happy to come over to "hang out" whenever he's horny and that he'll have no actually responsibility to you and can leave you the second someone better comes along (cause you know, we were just friends...).   Sounds like a good deal to him.

You teach people  how to treat you.  This guy has learned through repetition that YOU WANT TO FUCK HIM.  and that you're pretty willing to take it how you can get it (on your knees girl begging for him to take you back?!  What were you thinking?!  There's a million dicks out there, he's not that special...).  You will not be treated well by him as you have demonstrated that he is of higher worth than you are.  Which is probably why he's looking to rekindle - everyone likes basking in the glow of an admirer occasionally.  You're easy sex and you're an easy ego boost to boot! and he can ditch you without guilt, all the while denying that he's ever with you "hell no she's not my girlfriend dude, we just slept together a couple of times".  

You have said in other threads that there's no TOUCHING in the casual courting period of your religion.  Why does this guy get to be the exeption?  What about him makes him worth ditching your comitment to god (also btw, this may be an indication that you're not as into that other shy college guy as you thought, you weren't willing to comprimise much for him on this area) or that this friendship thing you're looking for a way to deny culpability "i dont know, we were high and it just happend..."  

You keep going back to this guy because for some reason you only think you're worth that kind of half hearted treatment.   Do you really think you'd be cool sharing him as part of the harem?   Part of you hopes that THIS TIME he'll think that you're so great that he'll give up all those other girls and you beat them all out for this great prize.  You see other girls interested, thus he must have worth.  If you win, then you have worth.  It's not a very good place to be coming from.    A woman of worth COMANDS respect and you aren't doing that, you're being treated like a light switch - on then off, on then off.   Know what happens when you convey "i'm not worth respect" to guys?  They agree with you.   You deserve a guy who picks you as his TOP choice, not his back up booty call.  

I don't think you're capable of changing the frame of the relatiionship with this guy, too much history.   You'll end up sliding back into old patterns...but clearly you get SOMETHING from those paterns, so what isit?

Serenity

I don't see anything here for you except heartache.  And a cup of coffee.

Sparrow

Wow, that was...unanimous. Thanks all. Sometimes it's good to have sense slapped into you.

@Version3. Good. I now feel no guilt about avoiding.

@Athol_Kay: Awesome song! And yeah, the girl is a trip.

@dmortone: Good point.

@Ben: So, woman up?

@Jane: Nope, I'm an East Coaster - but Cali is nice. I've got a weakness for La Jolla beach.  Anyway...ouch. VERY good points. The no-touchy thing was after my year abroad, though.

@Serenity: The heartache is NOT worth Dunkin' Donuts' coffee! (Maybe french pressed Arabica, medium roast...nah, not that either)

I think at this point I'm going to listen to everybody. If he does call about the coffee, I plan to be busy. I don't know what I'll be busy with, but I'll be busy. Yes, this is passive aggressive, but I learned a long time ago that explaining myself in this kind of situation (at least with this guy) just gives him ammo. So, will not engage.

And yes, I will post if anything happens so you guys who have taken the time to give me advice will know what came of it. Thank y'all for the input.

kleyau

@Sparrow, he's spinning plates, you're a plate. I personally use coffee "dates" a lot. Going out for coffee with a girl is like when I squat on my knees to get a cat to come over so I can scratch her head, I'm just letting her know how much she likes to be around me. And this guy has a harem, so he knows the game, and he knows that he has your cat. He just needs you to get close and enjoy his company.

Having said that, go for it. You already made your decision, you're just rationalizing it now.

dmortone

I wouldn't say nothing...he probably knows a thing or two in the bedroom area.

Beyond that, he probably won't give you more than an Alpha Widow membership card (you already sort of have it?).

Ben

Sparrow said:

@Serenity: The heartache is NOT worth Dunkin' Donuts' coffee! (Maybe french pressed Arabica, medium roast...nah, not that either)

Hell, I can give you french pressed Arabica any day of the week, home-roasted within the last three days, without the heartache.

Wendy

Well, it's all been said!  and I like your decision.

the thing that caught my eye was that: he said "can I call you for coffee?"  in the moment you said yes, but you didn't even wait for him to call,  you called him...

So, if I could make up a rule out of this situation, it would be, do not call a guy for date purposes, ever, unless you are 100% sure you wanna date him.   Don't ever call "to figure out his intentions," don't ever call if he said he would call you.  So if you can go back and know how it felt in the moment you decided to call him, and what reasons you gave yourself (which was hamster, so get to know your hamster), think about that and remember that feeling and know your reaction, for next time....

The silver lining is that is is good for you to re-encounter this guy with your red pill perspective and to be able to sound it out in the forum.  This is great info for you.  So that's the win in the whole thing. 

RedPillNewb

Everyone's said all that needs to be said, so I want to add something that doesn't need saying: you'd be better off going to Israel to chase the guy who doesn't seem that into you than joining this guy's harem.  And you really shouldn't go to Israel.  So...never see this guy again.

I wish I had his skills.  He has your hamster spinning at the speed of sound.  I can hear the sonic booms from here.

KatherineKelly

@Sparrow

If he affected you to where you were on your knees than I think he is dangerous to your heart.

I love asshole Alphas because I find them highly stimulating intellectually.

Not that they are necessarily that intelligent but their minds fascinate me.  They are rarely boring but you must never fall in love with them or let them know where you live for that matter.

I think possibly your problem is the opposite of being an idiot but that you are so intelligent many men leave you yawning and there is a raw cunning to these types of men that make them very intriguing, entertaining and seductive.

He will take you up into heaven and drop you into hell, It is in his blood and there is nothing that can be done about it unless you can be like him on the inside.

 

 

 

BrianC

I reiterate:

RedPillWifey

@BrianC I like my coffee like I like my women... COVERED IN BEEEES!

Sparrow

@Kleyau: What's the point of learning from my mistakes if I can't learn in time to avoid the train-wreck?

@dmortone: Nah, not worth it.

@Ben: Ooooh, really? 8->

@Wendy: I think that's a good rule. Maybe the zen of dating? "In not trying, you achieve" That, and yes, it's really good to have you guys on hand to tell me when I'm being stupid so I can learn in time to be less stupid.

@RedPillNewb: I wouldn't go to Israel to chase the guy. I'd only go if I were already caught. (and I like Israel).

@KatherineKelly: The "on my knees" thing was as much for my own honor as for him. If I mess up, I'm obligated to fix. So I did my best to apologize and fix my half of things.
I'm flattered you think I'm smart though- thank you! But you may have a point about the excitement value.
I think that I can't be like him on  the inside because doing so would require killing off a lot of the better parts of me to get there.

Notelrac

Do you want to have a serious relationship with him?  Prepare to be disappointed. 

Do you want to have sex with him?  If so, see him for coffee and follow his lead.

If not say, "No thanks.  It isn't going to work."  If he's really Alpha, he'll shrug and move on.  You might need to fend off a few more attempts over the next month.

Ben

Sparrow said:

@Ben: Ooooh, really? 8-> 

I should really think before I speak.  As I recall, you've got some pretty strict religious requirements and a "no touching" rule that need relaxing before you get a taste of my coffee.  (-: