Mate Guarding / Jealousy: Alpha, Beta, A Necessary Evil, or What?

Ben

So this got into a pretty extensive O/T tangent in the "FO's: What I Wish My Husband Knew About What I Want in the Bedroom" thread and I thought it deserved it's own topic.

Let's talk about what I will broadly call "mate guarding."  Not in the physical sense-- obviously an Alpha male responds to a clear and present physical danger to his mate or offspring with immediate and decisive action-- but in the sense of "guarding" one's mate from encroachment by competing males.

There was some discussion in the previous thread at too much length to quote directly here, but the question was raised whether and to what extent this behavior is desirable.  There was one camp which believed that it's a natural behavior and attractive in moderation, and that letting your wife believe that you won't do anything about it when other men attempt to win her from you is a display of weakness likely to be interpreted as being afraid of conflict and/or giving her "permission" to cheat.  There was another camp which believed that dismissively treating other men as not a threat to be a display of Alpha confidence.

@sf64 presented the idea that if one is sufficiently Alpha, one's wife will take care of these "threats" on her own, without requiring interference from you.

I chimed in with the thought that, like so much else, a woman's interpretation of these behaviors will be colored by her attraction to you.  If she is, mate guarding will be viewed as both an Alpha show of strength and a good-Beta proof of your investment in your relationship.  If she is not, it will be viewed as weak and controlling.

I'll quote @sf64's last post in its entirety so I can respond to it:

My point is that "I" isn't interested in going off with someone else because I am the AMOG.  I'm not saying that if some super-alpha showed up that was clearly more alpha than me, that hypergamy wouldn't kick in.  My challenge is to be the AMOG in the room.As long as I am in the very top tier in the environment.... all is safe and stable.  If in the context of the room, I am a 7 and a 10 shows up.... it becomes a different game.

Our challenge, as I see it, when running the MAP is to become the very best man we can, which by the nature of driving our SR higher, cock blocks challengers.  And yes, your wife / GF needs to know that you have options and that those options are equal or better to her.

I agree that a situation where you are so Alpha and high in Sex Rank that no other man could possibly be a threat (thus making mate guarding unnecessary) is the ideal.  In practice, though, no one man is ever going to be the clear AMOG in every situation.  So the question remains: on our way to that ideal, when we DO find ourselves in a situation where mate guarding seems necessary, what is the best approach to take?

Louise

I think if you believe you need to guard your mate from advances from other people, you aren't in a very good relationship to start with. If you were happy with each other, nobody else would have a chance of disrupting your relationship.

Ben

Fair enough, but then, aren't most of us here precisely BECAUSE our relationships aren't in a very good place?  So taking it as a given that we're working hard to improve them, the question remains: how do we handle these situations in the meantime?

And even in a good relationship, done the right way I think it can increase her sense of security.  I'll quote a story @sf64 told in the previous thread:

On Saturday night, 5 guys asked "I" for a dance.  Five times, she declined.  She never looked to me for guidance, my opinion, or for me to say anything.  She just politely turned them down.  

One of them was not taking no for an answer.  I stood up, put my hand on his shoulder, looked him in the eye and said, "The lady said no."  He looked at me, said, "I'm sorry" then turned and walked away.  

What that a necessary action because if he hadn't taken it, the lady he was with would have ditched him for another guy?  Of course not.  On the other hand, if you tell me she didn't get the tingles for him right then, I'll call you a liar.  (-:

446

@Louise - Sorry, but no. You can never afford to think s/he would never cheat. That's the bitter part of the red pill.

@Ben - it's a case of threading the needle. Just ditching her at first IOI to/from another male: too alpha. Avoiding conflict by not confronting likely suitors/situations: too beta. Confronting non-threatening males: too beta. Ignoring everything: too omega.

Confront threats, ignore non-threats, be vigilant without being paranoid.

RedPillNewb

I suppose there is no greater "outcome independence" than not caring if your woman runs off and has an affair.  Just dump her and move on to your next spinning plate.  I have my doubts that is really the most attractive thing to do (open display of not caring at all about the relationship: sexy?) but what do I know?

Furthermore, mate-guarding can be seen as a strong, Captain-y thing to do.  It may be that your woman doesn't actually want to dance with this loser (or go to Vegas with Queen Bee, or go to the GNO), but is too polite and people-pleasing to say no.  So she counts on you to say it for her and protect her from the social embarassment of rejecting someone.  That can make her feel protected and safe thanks to her manly man.  That, I think, is what @sf64 was doing, although in my opinion he used 4 too many words to do it.  If you fail to act, she may go dance and resent you for allowing her to have such an unpleasant experience.

fredless

Here's an example:

A male friend of my wife and I recently went through a divorce.  He's a nice guy but clearly unhappy about the turn of events his life has taken.  [History:  This guy is about 10 years younger than my wife and she met him years ago through work.  They have not worked together for about 10 years.]

The three of us were out to dinner, along with my wife's and my two sons.  Friend is talking about a sandwich shop that he loves that neither wife or I have heard of.  He looks at my wife and says, "I have to take you there for lunch."

My wife nodded and went about her dinner, thinking absolutely nothing of it.  About 18 months ago, I would have done the same.

This time, as soon as he said it, I stared at him--looking right in his eyes.  It was clear that I was not pleased with that invitation.  He stammered over his words and then threw out, "Yea, we'll all have to go." 

After dinner, I let wife know I wasn't pleased with Friend's sandwich shop invitation and she clearly had no idea what I meant.  I told her I trust her completely but no man is going to ask my wife out, particularly with me sitting right there.  I pointed out how he changed the invitation right after I stared at him.  She did remember Friend changing the invitation.  She didn't even know I had given Friend 'the look' and asked surprised, "You did that?  Just stared at him?"  [note:  obvious gina tingles were now emanating from my wife].

I assured her I had and she smiled but told me Friend is harmless.  I agreed that Friend is harmless but he's not consoling himself about his divorce with my wife.  I am relatively certain that my wife had no intention of going to a sandwich shop with Friend--but what if he next called her at work and offered to take her there for lunch.  She sees him as 'harmless' and decides to go.  I would not be cool with that.  Now, my wife knows I would not be cool with that and out of her respect/love for me, I know she will not go to sandwich shop with Friend. 

I once believed as @Louise did.  And generally, I think it's accurate.  However, over time, I've changed my view.  Each of us is human and no one is perfect.  I think it prudent to avoid placing oneself, or complacently watching one's spouse place herself, in dangerous situations. 

Athena

There was a new guy at work a while back, who was kInd of feeling out all the women, probably to see if there was any interest. He hit on me out Of sight of my husband, which I of course shot down, but I told him about it right away.

I guess "mate guarding" describes what my husband did in response at a work social function. He got very physical and made sure new guy saw him kissing, hugging me, etc. Complete with a couple of stare-downs. Honestly, it made me giggle at how AMOG he was trying to be.

But it worked, because the new kid wouldnt even make eye contact with me for a month! And when he did have a legit reason to approach me with something work-related, he took it to my husband first!

Be still my heart...if he only knew how hot that was!

Maria

Knowingly hitting on someone else's wife/girlfriend is a challenge. Always. It has to be met appropriately by display of strength, not fear or indifference.

Ben said:

.  In practice, though, no one man is ever going to be the clear AMOG in every situation.  So the question remains: on our way to that ideal, when we DO find ourselves in a situation where mate guarding seems necessary, what is the best approach to take?

In most situations an intense kiss would do to make your claim clear. Or just putting an arm around one's wifes shoulders/on her bum ;-) All quite unobtrusive AND confident AND it's no direct  acknowledgement of a threat by the other male either.

Kar

We were out at a fancy event seated at a table with a business associate of my husbands. Man is married but his wife was not there (he frequently leaves her at home-what does that tell you?), anyway, Man says to my husband in front of entire table and loud enough for all to hear, Wow, (MY name) is looking so hot tonight, I may just have to hit on her later."


This dude does cheat on his wife. My husband points his finger at Man and says, "NO! Don't talk that way about my wife. Not cool."

I actually really liked this. I felt like he was protecting what what his, A, and B, not allowing this man to disrespect me.

Kar

webmistress32

My DH never exhibited any jealousy or agitation about "other men" until I started talking to him about the Red Pill and Alpha. I think he used to just shrug his shoulders and say to himself "that's just webmistress!" and console himself that he knew I meant nothing by it.

But now that he knows that I know what it means when a man I don't know talks to me, or a man I do know asks me to lunch (just me) or (list of other examples...) He's totally taking the "I won't have any man hitting on you either right in front of me or behind my back!"

(ooooo yummy!  - that is hawt!!)

and he adds (rightly) : "that makes you look bad and it makes me look WORSE. I am not going to stand for it."

Red pill marriage = much different than the old marriage.

sf64

IMHO, there really is only one way to 'mate guard' and that is to have a clearly higher sex rank.  If you are a 5 and your wife is an SR7, you have a big problem.  If an SR8 takes a hard run at her... she is going to at least think about it.  Now, if your wife is an SR7 and you are an SR8, she might be susceptible to an SR9 or SR10, but in reality, an SR10 is not likely going to be interested in an SR7.

I quote from Rollo, hypergamy doesn't care. 

Hypergamy doesn’t care how great a Father you are to your kids.

Hypergamy doesn’t care how you rearranged your college majors and career choice in life to better accommodate her.

Hypergamy doesn’t care how inspired or fulfilled you feel as a stay-at-home Dad.

Hypergamy doesn’t care that you moved across 4 states to be closer to your LDR.

Hypergamy doesn’t care how ‘supportive’ you’ve always been of her decisions or if you identify as a ‘male feminist’.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about the sincerity of your religious convictions or aspirations of high purpose.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about those words you said at your wedding.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about how you funded her going back to college to find a more rewarding career.

Hypergamy doesn’t care how great a guy you are for adopting the children she had with other men.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about your divine and forgiving nature in excusing her “youthful indiscretions.”

Hypergamy doesn’t care about your magnanimity in assuming responsibility for her student loans, and credit card debt after you’re married.

Hypergamy doesn’t care if “he was your best friend.”

Hypergamy doesn’t care about the coffee in bed you bring her or how great a cook you are.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about all those chick flicks you sat through with her and claimed to like.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you do your part of the household chores.

Hypergamy doesn’t care about how much her family or friends like you.

Hypergamy doesn’t care if you think you’re a “Good” guy or about how convincing your argument is for your sense of honor.

Hypergamy doesn’t care whether the children are biologically yours or not.

Hypergamy doesn’t care if “she was drunk, he was cute, and one thing led to another,..”

Hypergamy doesn’t care how sweet, funny or intellectual you are.

Hypergamy doesn’t care if you “never saw it coming.”

The solution is to MAP and MAP hard.

pastorgeek

Always mate guard. Always. Vary the intensity according to the situation, but always guard. From The Look to major force, just understand the consequences of anything beyond The Look.

Danceny

@sf64 said:

an SR10 [male] is not likely going to be interested in an SR7 [female].

Sure he is, for a quick fuck or an affair.  If she's married, even better!  And she'll be even more interested in him because she's married, especially if ovulating.

It's perfectly normal for a lower-ranking male to mate-guard, and not in the passive sense of going home to "MAP and MAP hard."  "SR" is fluid and contextual and depends on clothes, body language, etc.  I let myself get AMOGed in front of my wife once (was kinda tired/out of it at the time, let him "glad-handle" me without responding, realized my error immediately), and the result was not pretty: she made a joke to him at my expense, out of earshot of me.  I have no idea if the guy outranks me in an objective sense.

longtimereader

right, which is why I deliberately pushed - and pushed hard, including a shitload of orga - for my wife to be there when the band I sing in (AMOG? I think so) had a gig. I saw how many IoIs I got from that. Wow. In front of the husbands, boyfriends, whatever... at least five women were more than happy to hit on me (including one on the way home tonight, two weeks later, first time I've seen her since the gig). The husband of our female singer was not very complimentary about her singing. I wonder why?

Being AMOG is important. Claiming your wife in front of everyone is also rather important ;) ("this is x, she's my wife, this is y and z"). She spent the evening chatting with another colleague.
Also get a lot more respect from a bunch of people at work as a result of this kind of thing (we've done some other "stuff" for other occasions) - the feedback is great and the unhappiness from certain persons palpable.

- ltr

RedPillNewb

No matter how hard I MAP, I'll never be a 10.  I'm too short and too skinny.  I may eventually convince her I outrank her, but I'm never going to ignore it when someone else makes a move.

NeoTheLeo

Louise said:

I think if you believe you need to guard your mate from advances from other people, you aren't in a very good relationship to start with. If you were happy with each other, nobody else would have a chance of disrupting your relationship.

I used to think that too along with alot of other blue pill stuff women always said that doesn't hold water. 

Kort

My husband has never mate guarded and I kinda resent him for it. I can think of times when I felt actively threatened by another man who was making a move on me in front of my husband. The first time was when a male friend of ours crawled into bed with me while I was sleeping, cause he and my husband wanted to see what I would do. I cuddled with him then woke up enough to tell him not to wear clothes to bed, realized it was not my husband and freaked out. My husband was standing in the doorway laughing like he was going to pee himself. A more recent one was when we were out with friends for karaoke and there was a guy at the bar who wouldn't take no for an answer. He tried to pull me out of my chair and my friends boyfriend decked him. My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down.

So, yeah, mate-guarding can be very important.

sf64

After I managed to hit send on my post, I saw, other posts on direct / open challenges in front of you.

Direct and open challenges always deserve a response - if coming from a true competitor.  In the case of my interaction with "I" at the party, my response was driven by the fact that this guy was being an ass, was drunk, and was bothering my date.  So yes, I intervened - to send him away.  It was mate guarding in the sense that I was protecting HER.  Now, I will concede, that had I not confronted the guy that was bothering her, that would have taken me down a notch or two in her book - and rightfully so.

In the case of the business associate, my response would have been something along the lines of, "That is incredibly crass and disrespectful.  I expect better from someone in your position."  I am putting him in his place, but giving no credence to the fact that I am worried that my wife / gf would be open to or susceptible to his advances.

People who want to cheat find a way to cheat.  Your mission is to become the guy your wife wants to have an affair with.  

sf64

Danceny said:

@sf64 said:

an SR10 [male] is not likely going to be interested in an SR7 [female].

Sure he is, for a quick fuck or an affair.  If she's married, even better!  And she'll be even more interested in him because she's married, especially if ovulating.

It's perfectly normal for a lower-ranking male to mate-guard, and not in the passive sense of going home to "MAP and MAP hard."  "SR" is fluid and contextual and depends on clothes, body language, etc.  I let myself get AMOGed in front of my wife once (was kinda tired/out of it at the time, let him "glad-handle" me without responding, realized my error immediately), and the result was not pretty: she made a joke to him at my expense, out of earshot of me.  I have no idea if the guy outranks me in an objective sense.

You are right that SR is fluid and context driven.  But the odds of an SR10 being interested in an SR7 are really low... only going to happen if the SR7 is the best looking female in the area.  

And to your point, you never want to get AMOG'd. One of the ways you prevent that is to MAP hard.

Joskin_Nodd

@Kort: "The first time was when a male friend of ours crawled into bed with me while I was sleeping, cause he and my husband wanted to see what I would do. I cuddled with him then woke up enough to tell him not to wear clothes to bed, realized it was not my husband and freaked out. My husband was standing in the doorway laughing like he was going to pee himself."

Totally not cool. Unless I had been the friend, then I probably would have been all right with it. ;)

Otherwise, totally not cool. That's like handing his friend a "try to fuck my wife when I'm not around to stop it" pass. 

"My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down"

Yup. You're guy kind of beta? Because I wouldn't have been that territorial, when I was ultra-beta. 

Kort

Joskin_Nodd said:

@Kort: 

Totally not cool. Unless I had been the friend, then I probably would have been all right with it. ;)

Otherwise, totally not cool. That's like handing his friend a "try to fuck my wife when I'm not around to stop it" pass. 

"My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down"

Yup. You're guy kind of beta? Because I wouldn't have been that territorial, when I was ultra-beta. 

Yeah, there was some weird chemistry between me and the friend to begin with and this just wound it up a bit tighter. It came to a head during a fight when I had the choice to smack him (which would have led to sex on the living room floor) or kick him out without touching him. The choice was much, much harder than I thought it would be but I was newly married and knew the right thing to do.

My guy is omega and has admitted such. His response to "We're working on this marriage and our sex life or you're moving out" has been to promise to talk to his doctor eventually and to stay over at his grandmother's house 12 of the past 14 days. It's been kinda nice, actually. <<---- totally not meant to threadjack, might start my own in a bit.