Mate Guarding / Jealousy: Alpha, Beta, A Necessary Evil, or What?

BenBen Posts: 2,875Silver Member
edited October 2012 in Married Life
So this got into a pretty extensive O/T tangent in the "FO's: What I Wish My Husband Knew About What I Want in the Bedroom" thread and I thought it deserved it's own topic.

Let's talk about what I will broadly call "mate guarding."  Not in the physical sense-- obviously an Alpha male responds to a clear and present physical danger to his mate or offspring with immediate and decisive action-- but in the sense of "guarding" one's mate from encroachment by competing males.

There was some discussion in the previous thread at too much length to quote directly here, but the question was raised whether and to what extent this behavior is desirable.  There was one camp which believed that it's a natural behavior and attractive in moderation, and that letting your wife believe that you won't do anything about it when other men attempt to win her from you is a display of weakness likely to be interpreted as being afraid of conflict and/or giving her "permission" to cheat.  There was another camp which believed that dismissively treating other men as not a threat to be a display of Alpha confidence.

@sf64 presented the idea that if one is sufficiently Alpha, one's wife will take care of these "threats" on her own, without requiring interference from you.

I chimed in with the thought that, like so much else, a woman's interpretation of these behaviors will be colored by her attraction to you.  If she is, mate guarding will be viewed as both an Alpha show of strength and a good-Beta proof of your investment in your relationship.  If she is not, it will be viewed as weak and controlling.

I'll quote @sf64's last post in its entirety so I can respond to it:

My point is that "I" isn't interested in going off with someone else because I am the AMOG.  I'm not saying that if some super-alpha showed up that was clearly more alpha than me, that hypergamy wouldn't kick in.  My challenge is to be the AMOG in the room.As long as I am in the very top tier in the environment.... all is safe and stable.  If in the context of the room, I am a 7 and a 10 shows up.... it becomes a different game.

Our challenge, as I see it, when running the MAP is to become the very best man we can, which by the nature of driving our SR higher, cock blocks challengers.  And yes, your wife / GF needs to know that you have options and that those options are equal or better to her.

I agree that a situation where you are so Alpha and high in Sex Rank that no other man could possibly be a threat (thus making mate guarding unnecessary) is the ideal.  In practice, though, no one man is ever going to be the clear AMOG in every situation.  So the question remains: on our way to that ideal, when we DO find ourselves in a situation where mate guarding seems necessary, what is the best approach to take?

---

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
anchorwatch
«1345

Comments

  • LouiseLouise EnglandPosts: 1,628Silver Member
    I think if you believe you need to guard your mate from advances from other people, you aren't in a very good relationship to start with. If you were happy with each other, nobody else would have a chance of disrupting your relationship.
    PhoenixDownDragginoscaralmgren
  • BenBen Posts: 2,875Silver Member
    edited October 2012
    Fair enough, but then, aren't most of us here precisely BECAUSE our relationships aren't in a very good place?  So taking it as a given that we're working hard to improve them, the question remains: how do we handle these situations in the meantime?

    And even in a good relationship, done the right way I think it can increase her sense of security.  I'll quote a story @sf64 told in the previous thread:

    On Saturday night, 5 guys asked "I" for a dance.  Five times, she declined.  She never looked to me for guidance, my opinion, or for me to say anything.  She just politely turned them down.  

    One of them was not taking no for an answer.  I stood up, put my hand on his shoulder, looked him in the eye and said, "The lady said no."  He looked at me, said, "I'm sorry" then turned and walked away.  

    What that a necessary action because if he hadn't taken it, the lady he was with would have ditched him for another guy?  Of course not.  On the other hand, if you tell me she didn't get the tingles for him right then, I'll call you a liar.  (-:

    ---

    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    Hamster_FreeDraggin
  • 446446 ArkansasPosts: 558Silver Member
    @Louise - Sorry, but no. You can never afford to think s/he would never cheat. That's the bitter part of the red pill.

    @Ben - it's a case of threading the needle. Just ditching her at first IOI to/from another male: too alpha. Avoiding conflict by not confronting likely suitors/situations: too beta. Confronting non-threatening males: too beta. Ignoring everything: too omega.

    Confront threats, ignore non-threats, be vigilant without being paranoid.
    GeoffWendyNeoTheLeoDraggin
  • MariaMaria EuropePosts: 4,289Category Moderator**
    Knowingly hitting on someone else's wife/girlfriend is a challenge. Always. It has to be met appropriately by display of strength, not fear or indifference.

    Ben said:
    .  In practice, though, no one man is ever going to be the clear AMOG in every situation.  So the question remains: on our way to that ideal, when we DO find ourselves in a situation where mate guarding seems necessary, what is the best approach to take?

    In most situations an intense kiss would do to make your claim clear. Or just putting an arm around one's wifes shoulders/on her bum ;-) All quite unobtrusive AND confident AND it's no direct  acknowledgement of a threat by the other male either.
    _____________________________________________________________________________
    If you want us to be unapologetically feminine, be unapologetically masculine.
  • KarKar USAPosts: 711Silver Member
    We were out at a fancy event seated at a table with a business associate of my husbands. Man is married but his wife was not there (he frequently leaves her at home-what does that tell you?), anyway, Man says to my husband in front of entire table and loud enough for all to hear, Wow, (MY name) is looking so hot tonight, I may just have to hit on her later."


    This dude does cheat on his wife. My husband points his finger at Man and says, "NO! Don't talk that way about my wife. Not cool."

    I actually really liked this. I felt like he was protecting what what his, A, and B, not allowing this man to disrespect me.

    Kar
    d0ckingLinanati
  • sf64sf64 San FranciscoPosts: 1,915Silver Member
    IMHO, there really is only one way to 'mate guard' and that is to have a clearly higher sex rank.  If you are a 5 and your wife is an SR7, you have a big problem.  If an SR8 takes a hard run at her... she is going to at least think about it.  Now, if your wife is an SR7 and you are an SR8, she might be susceptible to an SR9 or SR10, but in reality, an SR10 is not likely going to be interested in an SR7.

    I quote from Rollo, hypergamy doesn't care. 

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how great a Father you are to your kids.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how you rearranged your college majors and career choice in life to better accommodate her.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how inspired or fulfilled you feel as a stay-at-home Dad.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care that you moved across 4 states to be closer to your LDR.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how ‘supportive’ you’ve always been of her decisions or if you identify as a ‘male feminist’.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about the sincerity of your religious convictions or aspirations of high purpose.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about those words you said at your wedding.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about how you funded her going back to college to find a more rewarding career.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how great a guy you are for adopting the children she had with other men.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about your divine and forgiving nature in excusing her “youthful indiscretions.”

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about your magnanimity in assuming responsibility for her student loans, and credit card debt after you’re married.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care if “he was your best friend.”

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about the coffee in bed you bring her or how great a cook you are.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about all those chick flicks you sat through with her and claimed to like.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about how well you do your part of the household chores.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about how much her family or friends like you.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care if you think you’re a “Good” guy or about how convincing your argument is for your sense of honor.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care whether the children are biologically yours or not.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care if “she was drunk, he was cute, and one thing led to another,..”

    Hypergamy doesn’t care how sweet, funny or intellectual you are.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care if you “never saw it coming.”

    The solution is to MAP and MAP hard.


    Note - If you a FO with a Lazy Bear or Low-T husband, ignore everything I say. It probably doesn't apply
    "As he works on his MAP, he's going to do things that piss you off. He has to."  - Steu2817
    "In a world of Alpha's there is no peace for anyone.....welcome to Somalia enjoy your stay" - Highlander2




    NeoTheLeoAthol_Kayd0ckingoscaralmgren
  • pastorgeekpastorgeek Dodgeville, WI. USAPosts: 752Silver Member
    Always mate guard. Always. Vary the intensity according to the situation, but always guard. From The Look to major force, just understand the consequences of anything beyond The Look.

     "Get slim, get fit, be manly! But mostly, be the guy your wife thought she was marrying!" - me.

    Now blogging at simonpeter.org

    WendyMariaLinanatiAngeline
  • DancenyDanceny Ft. Collins, COPosts: 998Silver Member
    edited October 2012
    @sf64 said:
    an SR10 [male] is not likely going to be interested in an SR7 [female].
    Sure he is, for a quick fuck or an affair.  If she's married, even better!  And she'll be even more interested in him because she's married, especially if ovulating.

    It's perfectly normal for a lower-ranking male to mate-guard, and not in the passive sense of going home to "MAP and MAP hard."  "SR" is fluid and contextual and depends on clothes, body language, etc.  I let myself get AMOGed in front of my wife once (was kinda tired/out of it at the time, let him "glad-handle" me without responding, realized my error immediately), and the result was not pretty: she made a joke to him at my expense, out of earshot of me.  I have no idea if the guy outranks me in an objective sense.

    TPokeAngeline
  • NeoTheLeoNeoTheLeo Posts: 758Member
    Louise said:
    I think if you believe you need to guard your mate from advances from other people, you aren't in a very good relationship to start with. If you were happy with each other, nobody else would have a chance of disrupting your relationship.
    I used to think that too along with alot of other blue pill stuff women always said that doesn't hold water. 
    [Deleted User]d0ckingPurple
  • romanceauthorromanceauthor COPosts: 441Silver Member
    My husband has never mate guarded and I kinda resent him for it. I can think of times when I felt actively threatened by another man who was making a move on me in front of my husband. The first time was when a male friend of ours crawled into bed with me while I was sleeping, cause he and my husband wanted to see what I would do. I cuddled with him then woke up enough to tell him not to wear clothes to bed, realized it was not my husband and freaked out. My husband was standing in the doorway laughing like he was going to pee himself. A more recent one was when we were out with friends for karaoke and there was a guy at the bar who wouldn't take no for an answer. He tried to pull me out of my chair and my friends boyfriend decked him. My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down.


    So, yeah, mate-guarding can be very important.
    I'll try anything twice . . . 
    'Tis not love's going hurts my days, But that it went in little ways." - Edna St. Vincent Millay
  • sf64sf64 San FranciscoPosts: 1,915Silver Member
    After I managed to hit send on my post, I saw, other posts on direct / open challenges in front of you.

    Direct and open challenges always deserve a response - if coming from a true competitor.  In the case of my interaction with "I" at the party, my response was driven by the fact that this guy was being an ass, was drunk, and was bothering my date.  So yes, I intervened - to send him away.  It was mate guarding in the sense that I was protecting HER.  Now, I will concede, that had I not confronted the guy that was bothering her, that would have taken me down a notch or two in her book - and rightfully so.

    In the case of the business associate, my response would have been something along the lines of, "That is incredibly crass and disrespectful.  I expect better from someone in your position."  I am putting him in his place, but giving no credence to the fact that I am worried that my wife / gf would be open to or susceptible to his advances.

    People who want to cheat find a way to cheat.  Your mission is to become the guy your wife wants to have an affair with.  

    Note - If you a FO with a Lazy Bear or Low-T husband, ignore everything I say. It probably doesn't apply
    "As he works on his MAP, he's going to do things that piss you off. He has to."  - Steu2817
    "In a world of Alpha's there is no peace for anyone.....welcome to Somalia enjoy your stay" - Highlander2




  • sf64sf64 San FranciscoPosts: 1,915Silver Member
    Danceny said:
    @sf64 said:
    an SR10 [male] is not likely going to be interested in an SR7 [female].
    Sure he is, for a quick fuck or an affair.  If she's married, even better!  And she'll be even more interested in him because she's married, especially if ovulating.

    It's perfectly normal for a lower-ranking male to mate-guard, and not in the passive sense of going home to "MAP and MAP hard."  "SR" is fluid and contextual and depends on clothes, body language, etc.  I let myself get AMOGed in front of my wife once (was kinda tired/out of it at the time, let him "glad-handle" me without responding, realized my error immediately), and the result was not pretty: she made a joke to him at my expense, out of earshot of me.  I have no idea if the guy outranks me in an objective sense.
    You are right that SR is fluid and context driven.  But the odds of an SR10 being interested in an SR7 are really low... only going to happen if the SR7 is the best looking female in the area.  

    And to your point, you never want to get AMOG'd. One of the ways you prevent that is to MAP hard.

    Note - If you a FO with a Lazy Bear or Low-T husband, ignore everything I say. It probably doesn't apply
    "As he works on his MAP, he's going to do things that piss you off. He has to."  - Steu2817
    "In a world of Alpha's there is no peace for anyone.....welcome to Somalia enjoy your stay" - Highlander2




    TPoke
  • Joskin_NoddJoskin_Nodd AshwanPosts: 4,064Silver Member
    @Kort: "The first time was when a male friend of ours crawled into bed with me while I was sleeping, cause he and my husband wanted to see what I would do. I cuddled with him then woke up enough to tell him not to wear clothes to bed, realized it was not my husband and freaked out. My husband was standing in the doorway laughing like he was going to pee himself."

    Totally not cool. Unless I had been the friend, then I probably would have been all right with it. ;)

    Otherwise, totally not cool. That's like handing his friend a "try to fuck my wife when I'm not around to stop it" pass. 

    "My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down"

    Yup. You're guy kind of beta? Because I wouldn't have been that territorial, when I was ultra-beta. 

    "There are no right biscuits." – Mandrill

  • romanceauthorromanceauthor COPosts: 441Silver Member

    @Kort

    Totally not cool. Unless I had been the friend, then I probably would have been all right with it. ;)

    Otherwise, totally not cool. That's like handing his friend a "try to fuck my wife when I'm not around to stop it" pass. 

    "My husband told me he didn't bother because he knew I could handle myself. Yeah, had he got me standing up, I would have laid him out flat, but I shouldn't have had to. One indication from my husband that I was off limits would have had the guy backing down"

    Yup. You're guy kind of beta? Because I wouldn't have been that territorial, when I was ultra-beta. 

    Yeah, there was some weird chemistry between me and the friend to begin with and this just wound it up a bit tighter. It came to a head during a fight when I had the choice to smack him (which would have led to sex on the living room floor) or kick him out without touching him. The choice was much, much harder than I thought it would be but I was newly married and knew the right thing to do.

    My guy is omega and has admitted such. His response to "We're working on this marriage and our sex life or you're moving out" has been to promise to talk to his doctor eventually and to stay over at his grandmother's house 12 of the past 14 days. It's been kinda nice, actually. <<---- totally not meant to threadjack, might start my own in a bit.
    I'll try anything twice . . . 
    'Tis not love's going hurts my days, But that it went in little ways." - Edna St. Vincent Millay
  • DancenyDanceny Ft. Collins, COPosts: 998Silver Member
    edited October 2012
    @sf64:  Men don't often make "direct and open challenges" IME; they make slimy, plausibly deniable, tacit or "just being funny" challenges.  They observe the woman's and man's responses and then escalate to something a shade more overt, and repeat.  @Joskin_Nodd parodied this in his post above, but if he really said that with @Kort's hubby standing there, it would require a response.  I guess your argument is that over-responding at any given threat level demonstrates insecurity.  (An extreme example would be, a man shakes your wife's hand and you run up and yell, "Hey you, get yer damn hands off her!" [edited for George McFly ref])  So there's what PUAs would call a "calibration" to this.  Still, my gut feeling (and I don't think it's just because I've been cheated on) is that with a wife you should err on the side of over-responding.

    An important distinction bears reiterating because a lot of Red Pillers miss it.  An Alpha is aloof/indifferent to women's emotions; he is NOT aloof to interloping males.  Just look at primates.

    In humans I could see how implying, "This dork's not a serious enough threat to even intimidate" could be a form of AMOGing, but you'd need to do it in an active way, e.g. insulting him subtly.

    image

    Angeline
  • Joskin_NoddJoskin_Nodd AshwanPosts: 4,064Silver Member
    @Kort: "Yeah, there was some weird chemistry between me and the friend to begin with and this just wound it up a bit tighter."

    And he let the friend crawl into bed with you. Out. Of. His. Damned. Mind.

    " It came to a head during a fight when I had the choice to smack him (which would have led to sex on the living room floor) or kick him out without touching him. The choice was much, much harder than I thought it would be"

    No doubt. Your guy ever have cuckolding fantasies? Seems a little weird that he'd put a guy with an obvious sexual chemistry with you in bed with you. Unless he was passively wanting you to say, "Want me to fuck another guy while you watch? It'll be fun!" . . . you know, so it would be your idea.

    "There are no right biscuits." – Mandrill

    Angeline
  • romanceauthorromanceauthor COPosts: 441Silver Member
    @Joskin_Nodd Yep, he's tried to get me to do the whole cuckolding thing with him. I'm not sure he realizes how badly it would turn out for him. I don't need to sleep with other guys to get very tempting offers of "He's crazy, I'd never ..." I've explained it but he just insists that he doesn't believe in divorce and I should do whatever I need to to be happy, as long as he gets to watch sometimes. Skeeves me out.
    I'll try anything twice . . . 
    'Tis not love's going hurts my days, But that it went in little ways." - Edna St. Vincent Millay
  • Joskin_NoddJoskin_Nodd AshwanPosts: 4,064Silver Member
    @Kort: "I'm not sure he realizes how badly it would turn out for him."

    Neither do the folks who take that first hit of meth, otherwise we'd have no meth-heads. 

    "I've explained it but he just insists that he doesn't believe in divorce and I should do whatever I need to to be happy, as long as he gets to watch sometimes. Skeeves me out."

    In all fairness, there's no doubt a good reason he wants to be cuckolded. Burned in childhood issues, even genetic inclination. However, given that, it's highly unlikely he's ever going to be territorial with you: the only kind of territorial he wants is sperm competition—ergo, having sex with you after somebody else has. 

    If he wants it enough to both tell you about it, ask for it, and put another guy into bed with you . . . sweety, I hope it gets better for you, but most of the time that's like hoping a guy with a missing leg will grow it back. It's probably just something he's stuck with. 

    Can't believe he's dawdling on sexual counseling. There's a 50/50 chance a random counselor will advise you to act out his cuckolding scenarios. Of course, there's also a 50/50 chance the counselor would tell him that cuckolding is a quick path to divorce, and that pushing a woman who doesn't want to do it to go ahead and do it is pretty much a guarantee of divorce. 

    Next LTR, make sure they'd never want to share you. ;) 

    "There are no right biscuits." – Mandrill

Sign In or Register to comment.